Memoirs of a Former Adult Talent Agent-Chris

Script anglais, Youtube / Soft White Underbelly, 01-07-2026, Voir le film

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you know. Yeah. I knew girls who were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just shooting and they were still escorting because you always need more. It's never enough. When you've got an infinite, you know, let's say what some people call a god-sized hole in your psyche, in your spirit, it doesn't matter how much money you pour into it. >> So, Chris, when did you come to LA? So, I first came to LA, I was probably 19, 20 years old, somewhere around then. I had been going to college in

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Pennsylvania for um computer networking of all things. And I sort of took a look around and decided I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be sort of stuck in a cubicle. And I was always drawn to like eccentric and artistic people. And I always had a sense that I wanted to get out, you know, into like the big city and all that kind of stuff. So um so I moved to LA. I dropped out of college actually. I moved to Los Angeles uh when I was 1920 and um started attending music school actually there. I was in the music

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business before I was in the adult entertainment business. So I was in the music business for a few years and and that's sort of how that started. >> What how did you get introduced to to adult entertainment? So, so like I said, I was in the music business and I was just making no money as most people in the music business do. And um you know, I was really impatient about that. I I I was always sort of impatient about being successful and making money and and whatever at the time. And um so I had a I was dating a

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girl at the time uh who was not in the adult business, but she said, "You know, I have a family friend who has a job opening." because I was looking for a job and he's looking for an assistant and um she said but you know it's in the it's in the adult film business and me as a you know 20-year-old kid at the time or 21 or however old I was I said okay great I don't care you know that's fine so uh she introduced me to him and his company sort of was a a broker for adult film rights so it was kind of on

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the outside of the business the the ancillary end of the business uh and what they would do is is uh act as an agent between adult film producers in the United States and foreign clients who wanted to buy rights for those films. So it was licensing, film licensing. Um and so I started off as his assistant and um at the time at that time I think he was I was making $35,000 a year which for me at that point was like a good amount of money. you know, I went from work at minimum wage at the time was

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probably $8 an hour or something, right? So, so um you know, believe it or not, at that time in California, which was almost 20 years ago now, you could you could make it on that if you had a roommate and whatever. So, just to be able to pay my bills for me was exciting. And and uh it was my first real sort of corporate job. I had an office and a desk and all that kind of stuff. And so anyway, um I was his assistant and eventually our one of our sales and acquisitions people quit and I said, "Hey, you know, give me a shot at

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that. Let me let me do that job." And he did. Uh and so I sort of became an agent representing adult film producers and selling their content to foreign, you know, buyers of of rights of adult film rights. And eventually you became like an agent, >> correct? So yeah, the bulk of my career. So I I I was doing that for a few years and then that kind of became a dead end. And I was looking around on a a job site one day which was um there was a a site for adult jobs basically like within the

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industry kind of insular like if you're not in the industry you wouldn't know about it but but it was basically like a Craigslist job section but for the industry and I saw on there that there was a talent agency that represented models that was advertising looking for a new agent. And I thought I was familiar with this agency. Uh they were the biggest in the industry. If you think of, you know, their mainstream equivalent would be like Willamina or um WME or any of those those big talent

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agents like they were that of the adult world. And uh so I thought, yeah, let me apply to that. So I applied and I don't think they responded. And I kept following up and following up and following up. Anyway, finally I got an interview and the interview went great, but at the time I was, I think, 25 years old and I looked young too back then. I probably looked like I was 17. And so um they didn't hire me actually. And so a year goes by and all of a sudden I get a call. They had hired someone else in

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the interim. And I get a call from the owner of that company and he says, you know, hey, are you still looking for a job? Are you still available? The guy that we hired didn't work out. And I said, hell yeah, I am. You know, and um and yeah, and again, so I I got that job, started working for them, making, you know, double or more than double what I was making my previous job. Softwight Underbelly is about giving people a space to tell their stories, even when these stories challenge what we think we know. Brown News shows us

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our attention is constantly being fought over, my Vantage plan easily helps me keep up with more important stories slipping through the cracks. So, I encourage you to check them out at ground.news/swu. Subscribe through my link or download the mobile app and enter promo code SWU to save 40% off their Vantage plan. And by subscribing or even gifting it to someone you know, you're helping hold the media accountable and helping my channel directly. Thank you for watching. >> And it was, you know, from as a 20ome

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year old kid, 25-year-old, you know, it was it was great. I had my own parking space. We had a beautiful office overlooking the 101 in Los Angeles with big >> in the San Franando Valley. >> Yeah. in the vivid what used to be the vivid building which I don't know if it's still it's I don't think it is anymore but you know had these big windows overlooking the the the highway and you had my own desk we had assistance you know if I needed my dry cleaning done someone you know someone would do that

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so as a 25-year-old kid from a very very small town you know that was I was like wow this is you know this is great you know and uh and and certainly I didn't have any you know moral objection to to those things at the time cuz again I was very young. You know, I think like a lot of young people I sort of grew up um with ideas about porn and sex and whatever that were very of the culture, you know. So, >> and uh tell me about the ins and outs of that job. >> So, I mean, no pun intended.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. So really we operated like any other talent agent. I mean day-to-day stuff was like you know booking shoots for models, negotiating terms of shoots for models. Um I did quite a lot. I was actually sort of one of the first people to um pursue a lot of ancillary revenue streams for models at the time. Um social media was a thing. Obviously this would have been like around 2012 134 somewhere in there. So influencers were just like sort of becoming a thing and the idea that um you know a girl

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could have an Instagram account and make a living just being a pretty girl on Instagram was like just starting to become a reality. And so I kind of saw that and and and said, you know, there's a there's a finite amount of work you can do as an adult model in terms of shooting. I mean just physically speaking. Um and so and also just career longevity is is very short typically for these these performers. And so um so I started negotiating deals with companies for like brand deals and you know to

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have models post on Twitter about a product or service or whatever website. >> You represented men and women, right? We represented men and women. And when I first started, we represented over a hundred women and probably a dozen men, maybe more than that. And and some of the biggest names, the biggest names in the industry. Like if you watch adult content, you would know who my clients were 100%. You know, we represented most of the it was like us and one other agency that were sort of representing

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all the big stars in the business essentially. Tell me about the uh the men and women that you'd be representing. What what kind of personalities are you dealing with? >> So, as far as the women were concerned, most of them were were very young. You know, they're coming into the industry 18, 19, 20, 18 to 25 years old generally. Very rare that you get a model coming in after that. Um, and probably for good reason because that's when their frontal cortex and their brain develops and they they make

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better decisions. Um, but most models who enter that that business come from rough backgrounds typically. There there are certain stereotypes about the industry that are absolutely true and and the models that participate in it. And one of those things is that almost all the almost all models in the industry have they they come from broken homes most of the time. Um or you know it's always something with the father. This is very stereotypical. The stereotypical like you know daddy issues kind of

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thing. Uh very almost all of them. You will almost never meet an adult film star who had a loving and present father and you know a great family and whatever and even a lot of times when they tell you that it's [ __ ] you know there's something there usually or they were subject so there's always a father issue and or they were always sub they were subject to some kind of abuse whether that's sexual physical whatever it is almost always and it's funny this is bringing to mind I I

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um even the ones that tell you that they weren't a lot of times it's just because they're not in a place to understand that that's what that's what happened to them. So in sort of prepping for this this in talking to you I I went back and looked at some of the uh adult film stars that you've interviewed which not a lot but there was a few. and you interviewed this one girl who's a porn star and only fans girl and you asked her that question. Was there any abuse in your

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life? And she said, "No, no, my, you know, I I never had any abuse when I was a kid. My my family was great and this and that." And then in the very next sentence, she went on to tell you about how when she was underage, she used to go on webcam sites, Omegle or whatever, not porn sites necessarily, but just webcam chat sites, and speak to older men who would then get her to take her clothes off. And so she's going from telling you that she had no abuse when she was a kid to then describing taking her clothes off

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for older men online when she was underage. And it's like, well, what do you think that is? you know, and so so when she so in her mind, she says, "No, I've never experienced any sort of abuse like that." But that's what that is. If you're an underage girl online who is being solicited by older men to take your clothes off, that's abuse. And and whether you consciously understand that or not is is another thing. Um, >> and often they had abuse that they don't

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they've blocked out or don't remember or whatever. reminds me of um there's a Carl Young quote. He says uh until the unconscious is made conscious, it'll direct your life and you'll think it's fate. Okay. So, you know, there's there's a lot of those sorts of situations. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, I would say that um many of these girls are coming from backgrounds that are pretty rough. drug issues in the family, family issues, father left them. Almost always is a

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father issue. Almost always. So, >> and what so I'm sure you know the adult film industry has a is notorious for like, you know, deaths and suicides, drugs, >> things like that. I'm sure you saw lots of that, right? >> And that's the other thing is that almost all of these girls and again, you know, people are going to say, "Well, I was in the industry. I'm totally fine." Whatever. Okay, I'm not saying 100%, but I'm saying it's common enough that

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there's definitely a pattern there. A lot of these girls struggle with anxiety, depression, uh other mental issues, almost all of them, no matter how much money they make, you know. Um yeah, like I said, I I I watched another interview you did with an Only Fans manager who said, you know, there's this girl making 300 grand a month and she's depressed. she struggles with depression and all this stuff like yeah doesn't go away with the money. >> How do these men and women fall into

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this industry? >> How do you think they get, you know, introduced to it? >> Yeah, I I think um that's a great question. How did they get into it? I I think it's the prime. I think it's um >> because I'm sure a lot of your talent was probably you were the first agency they they worked with. >> Yeah. Um I I So well I guess from a You mean from like a logistical standpoint? How does it happen? >> Yeah. Is it is it a photographer or is it an agent? >> Yeah. So it can happen various ways. I

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mean we were uh popular enough in the industry that we didn't really do any scouting. >> They would come to you. They would come to us because as soon as you searched adult, >> you're the big tuner >> talent agent. Yeah. We would come up. News articles about us would come up. They would see our roster and um so they would find us. >> You know, sometimes we would get um referrals from other models or from directors or whatever, but most models that we ended up working with submitted

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applications through our site and that's how we they found us most of the time. Yeah. And then typically we would, you know, if we were interested in them, we would have a conversation over the phone and then they would fly out to Los Angeles and, you know, off to the races. >> What kind of money were they making typically? >> So, and this is another great topic, the money, because a lot of models would come into that business thinking that it's going to be they're going to be

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it's just going to be an ATM machine. They're going to make a ton of money. it's going to be super easy like you know and and of course public perception sells them that you know and even now with only fans they see you know all these girls making this crazy money on only fans and people don't realize that the average Only Fans model makes I think I read it $250 a month is the average Only Fans account. So, you know, I would even tell these girls sometimes, especially towards the end

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when my my feelings on the industry had sort of changed and my my sense of morality had sort of changed around the industry, but I was still in it. And I would even tell these girls sometimes, I I would say, you know, um there's very few women in this business who make the kind of money that you think you're going to make. you know would and I would say would you still be doing this if I told you that maybe you're only going to make 70 grand a year would you still do it because more times than not

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that's going to be where you're going to end up you know and this is forever and so is it worth it to make >> the images will live on the internet forever >> yeah forever and is it worth it to make as much money as you could make bartending to do this you know and you know yeah So, can you make a lot of money in the adult industry? Yes. But I'll give you an idea. So, when I was in the industry, a starting rate for a boy girl scene, as we called it, a man and a woman having

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sex was $1,000. Okay, that was a starting rate. And that also, not only just a starting rate, but that was a rate that, you know, if you didn't become popular such that um it was justifiable to raise your rate, that might stay your rate the entire time you're in the business. I mean, I knew girls who were in the business for 10 years who were still making a thousand bucks a scene, but just to think and and that didn't change the entire time I was in the business. I mean, didn't matter

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what inflation was or whatever, that stayed the rate, the starting rate. And so, you know, a very very popular model will shoot 20 scenes a month. if her if her body can handle it and and and uh the demand dictates, maybe she can shoot 25. Um, so let's say you're a brand new model and you're super popular and you're making a,000 bucks a scene. You're shooting 20 scenes a month. That's $20,000. Okay, that's 200 some grand a year. Is that a lot of money in Los Angeles,

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especially now? Uh, so, you know, is that worth it? I don't know. And that's why a lot of these models end up doing other things besides just shooting adult content, you know, they end up doing prostitution or whatever or having sugar daddies, you know, and so, yeah, I would warn a lot of these girls like, you know, maybe you'll make a lot of money, but you have to really think about are you okay doing this if you don't? if you just made as much money as you can make at any normal job, would

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that be okay? This is out there forever, you know, and and a lot of them would do it anyway. And you know, cuz I just think at at that age, at the age that these women are and the backgrounds they come from, they're not prepared to conceptualize what that means. They're it's in they're it's incapable. They're incapable of doing it at 18 years old to think about that. you know, everybody thinks that they're going to be the star, that, you know, they're gonna make all that money,

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whatever. And, you know, >> or probably even more common than that is they think they're going to do it and no one's really going to see it, especially back then, >> right? >> Yeah. And I mean, this was, like I said, this was I was in the industry. I was I was an agent from about 2013ish to 2022, somewhere like that. I've been out of the business for three or four years. It's about four years now. So, whatever the math is. Um, and uh, yeah, a lot of them, yeah, a lot

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of them thought that they were going to be all of them did, you know, thought that they were going to be the next star or whatever. I don't know. But for and again, there are models who make a lot of money in that industry, but I don't even think it's worth it then to be honest. Um, but yeah, >> but what do you think of Only Fans now? >> It's just it's really the same thing just under a different management. Yeah, I I think I think it's all bad. You know, if I if I was dictator tomorrow, I

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I'd probably make I I would probably make porn illegal across the board. I don't think it's good for anybody. I don't think it's good for the people that do it. I don't think it's good for the people that participate in it. And I've just seen a lot of very very sad stories. I I I know almost nobody that was in that industry uh that is, you know, that was in it at 20 and by 40 they were retired and happy and had a family and whatever. You see a a lot of very sad situations of models

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who come in when they're very young and they've never had another job before. They have no education and they're in the industry for 10, 15 years and they try to get out. They find a guy who, you know, likes them, wants to marry them, whatever. they and they try to get out and they find it very difficult because maybe they were making decent money and now they have to go be a waitress at Applebee's and there's nothing wrong with that but when that's what you're used to and you have no

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experience in the real world uh it be it can become a trap you know and all that all all those things that you thought were were liberating you in your 20s end up turns out they were you know, you're a slave and then they come back into the industry at 40 and they've got to shoot scenes for a,000 bucks a scene, you know, and by then they're older, they're a little bit wiser, they understand and they don't want to be doing it, but it's the only thing that they could do to make money

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at that point, you know. >> What kind of I'm sure you have some interesting or sad stories of people >> Oh, yeah. >> have uh you've seen the the arc of their mental health for sure when I was in the the industry and I don't and again these things change because they're it's trends but when I was in the industry Xanax was a big thing a lot of the girls were taking Xanax you know because again a lot of them were depressed whatever I saw models who tragically um we represented a model named Kagney

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I'll just I'm going to say her name um who was a very very popular model A-list you know like I think she won performer of the here at AVN one time, one year, like top 10, you know, models in the industry and um we represented her on and off. Most of the time when I was at that agency, we didn't represent her, but we had represented her. We got her career started and then she left and went to a different agency and then she was in and out of the business a bunch of times and each time she would come back, she'd be

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with a different agent or maybe she'd come back to us for a little bit or whatever. But I could always tell that it made her miserable. she didn't like doing it. You know, you could just tell that there was like kind of a a broken little girl in there and and uh yeah, she I would see her at different events or whatever and she would just be hammered drunk or, you know, blacked out basically on Xanax or whatever. But again, she came in and out of the industry because she would find a guy who would take her

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out and then that guy would break up with her and then she'd be back in and then she could go try to do something else and then that wouldn't work out and she'd be back in and and um yeah, she eventually ended up killing herself, you know, and at 20ome years old I think uh late 20s maybe. So, and that is not an uncommon story, you know. So I I think Only Fans, you know, it's like I guess if there's a scale of things, right? If if one thing is less bad than the other, if it's a lesser evil, I I

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suppose you could say that. But I think in a way I don't know Only Fans might be even more detrimental to the consumer in in some way than traditional pornography which I think is already detrimental to the consumer you know so I I think it's just six of one half dozen half dozen of the other you know you know the agencies in our industry one that I was part of others are licensed by the state just like any other talent agency like we have the same or we had I'm not in the industry anymore but we had the same

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license that like a Willamina would have had or a WME or anybody. So, we did not engage in in escorting um stuff ourselves, but you know, that kind of thing is always around. And yeah, a lot of those girls, I would say most girls, regardless of what agency they were from were participating in that to some degree or another because to to the at that point, you know, once you've compromised once you've taken that leap into the abyss and you've compromised yourself morally and whatever and you've decided that

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you're going to have sex on camera to the model, at that point, they're not even operating as a person anymore, you know? um they've they've flattened themselves into two dimension, you know, where they're almost an object and for purchase. Uh, and at that point in her mind, she can either, if you look at it, she can either go and be on set for 6 to 8 hours to make a a porn scene and get paid $1,000, or she can go sleep with this guy in his hotel room, and that'll be an hour, and she'll make more money

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than that, or as much at least. At least, usually more. And so yeah, I mean escorting is definitely a part of that industry. You know, it's not something that I was involved in or that we were involved in directly, although there there's always rumors about that, but you know, I can tell you myself that I was never involved in anything like that. Um, and yeah, it's it's a part of the industry and almost all those girls are doing it. I mean, again, I don't know about now, you know, is a girl that's

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making $3 million a year in Only Fans escorting maybe. I don't know. She >> probably doesn't need to. You know what? Yeah, but you say that, but like >> there's some there's somebody that'll pay whatever. I >> I knew so many girls that didn't need to and they still were. >> Once you once you make uh money your highest moral authority, okay? Um all of your actions are are aligned towards that end. Okay. are oriented towards that end or towards that pursuit

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and um and and whe you know and maybe a lot of these girls are are trying to fulfill something in themselves and that's why they're doing that or whatever whatever I don't whatever the psychology is. Um but you know yeah I knew girls who were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just shooting and they were still escorting because you always need more. It's never enough when you've got an infinite, you know, let's say what some people call a god-sized hole in your psyche, in your

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spirit. It doesn't matter how much money you pour into it. And the and the sad thing is too that I knew a lot of girls who made a lot of money escorting, doing um Only Fans, doing porn scenes, and a lot of them end up broke. I knew girls who were cash millionaires who could go to the bank and pull out a million cash if they wanted. Probably had a million in cash stuffed under their mattress because they, you know, earned it illicitly and couldn't put it in the bank. Um, that ended up homeless.

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I was talking to, you know, I I not too long ago I I spoke to someone in the industry and they were telling me, "Oh yeah, so and so is is staying at my house." And and the girl that they were talking about was a girl who was a top performer in the business and also was a huge time escort making a ton of money escorting. Okay. Like millionaire millionaire, you know. And she's telling I I go, "Why is she What do you mean she's staying at your house? Why is she staying at your house?" And she says,

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"Oh, well, she's she's homeless." And I go and it blew my mind. I'm like, I I knew this girl as someone who was like driving around in a Porsche and you know, had all the stuff all the stuff that you could want. But the thing about money is it's like, and maybe you've seen this as well cuz you were in the entertainment business or modeling world or whatever, but like money is an amplifier. And if you are a person who's spiritually dead or spiritually sick or you know in your

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psyche you have problems it it will amplify those. It makes them worse and and everything will be taken from you. You know >> I I think what happens with these girls stories I've seen is they start out and you're you're just going to be on camera doing some nudity and that's how they start and that's not that terrible. But then the novelty of that for their clients wears off and then they're the agents will tell them, "Well, you need to do a scene with guys."

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>> Mhm. >> So then you're going to do scenes with guys and then it goes to the next level and >> Yeah. >> eventually you're doing >> Yeah. And I and I saw models who came in, I mean, I can think of a model right now who when she came in the industry, >> she didn't want even want to touch herself on camera. She didn't even want to she didn't want to do anything on c like you know sexually on camera. She wouldn't even whatever by herself and

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yeah within the first couple of years she was doing absolutely everything. Um >> and everything in that industry can be a lot. >> Yeah. And so there was plenty of girls who, you know, there there's a lot of times where I never will turned into I wish I w hadn't. That happened all the time, you know, and it's not necessarily it's not necessarily the agents pressuring them to do it, but the the business itself pressures you because, you know, the more you do, the more work

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there is, the more potential work there is. And if you come in the industry and you have all these ideas about how much money you're going to make and you find out that well, if you're not having sex on camera with guys, that money is not there because that's what people want to pay for. Then if your priority is is the money, then then yeah, you're going to compromise whatever morals you thought you had, you know, unfortunately. So, >> and I think the shame that goes with this work is what opens up the the world

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of drugs and alcohol and things like that. Yes. Yes. But I wouldn't say so that's that's true to a degree, but I but most people use the word shame as a peorative like, oh, if we just got rid of the shame, it's not the thing that I'm doing. It's if it's your reaction to the thing that I'm doing that makes it bad. And that's I I don't think that's true. I I think that some things are are just damaging to to to the soul, you know, like on a spiritual level or, you know,

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even just a physical psychic level. And so when people say, well, like, oh, it's, you know, it's just it's the shame that's why they they do drugs and whatever, uh, and and and have mental issues and this and that. the the participating in the adult business to begin with is as an indicative of the pro of a of a problem that's underlying as as the shame that comes along with it is like it's all just a symptom of an underly of underlying issues. So, like, you know, I the idea to me that the way

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to solve this issue for everybody is just like, well, we'll just stop shaming them and be totally okay with it. Uh, is laughable, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think if anything, um, yeah, I mean, like if you are hurting yourself, there should be some shame associated with that. I don't think I think we need to bring back a little shame to be honest. I think we live in a very shameless society, you know, where almost anything goes. We live in a society now that is more permissive of everybody's vices than

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it's ever been and everybody's [ __ ] miserable. Because let's talk about freedom for a second. So what we're told freedom what we're told is that in in society is that uh is being free to engage in vice right so if I'm free I'm able to to you know screw anybody I want I'm able to do drugs that's how you can tell that I'm free um and I'm going to call those actions for lack of a better term we're going to call it we're going to call it sin the

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religious in in the religious context, sin. Okay? But even if you're not religious, think of it outside of the religious context. We'll say that sin is that which those actions which separate you from uh the highest conception of yourself. Okay? So if you conceptualize, you know, who would I be if I was the best version of myself, the most virtuous version of myself, the best version of myself, sin is that which separates you from that actions which separate you from that conception. Okay?

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So we have a society that tells us that that freedom is the ability to gauge in promiscuous sex, drugs, gambling, etc., etc. That's not what freedom is. Because when when you do those things, you become a slave to your your baser uh passions, your baser instincts, the instinct to [ __ ] the instinct to blow money, the instinct to eat, the inst whatever. So society is taking and what evil is evil is is when you take that which is good, you invert it and then you present the inversion as the good.

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Okay? So you're free if you have sex, promiscuous sex. You're free if you engage in pornography. You're free if you if you engage in sports gambling. If you if you're smoking THC pens all day, okay, they're selling you slavery as freedom. Okay. And that's definitionally evil because you're not free when you do those things. You've interviewed a lot of drug addicts. Do they seem very free to you? >> No. >> Okay. You've interviewed a lot of girls engaged in prostitution and whatever. Do

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they seem free? >> Not at all. >> Okay. So freedom, true freedom is not the freedom to sin. It's the freedom from sin. And again, I'm using that word because I don't have a better term, but you can think of it in a religious context or not. It doesn't matter. The same principle applies. A lot of people get hung up on like, oh, I'm not religious, so I can't say that. >> But that's but that's what freedom is. Freedom is freedom from sin, not to sin. And we have a society

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that's telling young people what are we what are we you know everybody complains about um you know society and it's it's it's so hard to date and no one wants to know you and I it's hard to have friends and I can't find anybody and all this everything just seems like it's a mess and um and and and look at what we're telling young people. Every other commercial on TV is sports gambling and pharmaceuticals. We're telling young people, yeah, watch as much pornography as you want. It's

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it's good for you. In fact, it it prevents rape. It prevents all that. It's like a vitamin practically. And the industry comes out with all these studies, you know, every few years or whatever goes, "Oh, we've studied it and actually people who watch porn are like way happier and whatever." No, they're [ __ ] not. No, they're not. you know, and especially as a man, like, you know, when you're a slave to that baser instinct, I don't I think part of becoming a man is is understanding

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uh the the sexual instinct and and subduing that or or directing that energy um in a higher order way, right? So, like obviously if you're expressing that by sitting at home and jerking off in front of a screen, like you're you're one step above an animal, you know, like monkeys do that, okay? It's not you're not, you know, you're not participating in anything beautiful or freeing. You're not being liberated. And society is sell is selling you slavery as liberation. >> Interesting.

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>> Yeah. >> Did you see your psyche or whatever uh changing as you worked in the industry >> for sure. Um and when I got into the business, I was very young and so I believed all this stuff. I believed all, you know, there's nothing wrong with porn. Like if a girl wants to be promiscuous, like that's, you know, that's a a part of her expressing her, you know, femininity and independence and all this stuff, which is not. Um and I bought into all that stuff. I was also like very I was like

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proabortion. And I was I was all that stuff, which that's another topic cuz there's a girls in that industry that use abortions as birth control, you know, and um but again, I I was like a boy, you know, I didn't understand like what it meant to be a man and what that meant in society and what it means in relation to the women that I interact with. And so by the time I got into my like late mid to late I'm in more like late 20s, I had moved to Vegas. We opened up an office in Las Vegas. So I moved out of LA and

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moved to Vegas and um my girlfriend at the time got pregnant and with you know we found out we're having a daughter and as that um that event tends to do if you're a relatively conscious person you start asking yourself questions like you know what does it mean to be a man? What do I believe in? What do I all the big questions of the universe. What do I believe about God? What do I believe about sex? What do I believe about whatever? Because a lot, you know, when you're an adolescent or a young man,

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you're just running on whatever your programming is from society, your childhood, whatever. And you know, you're not giving too much forethought to like, oh, should I hook up with this girl or you know, what's what are the spiritual implications of, you know, and maybe to some degree that's not the responsibility of like very young men. Maybe that's maybe that's a responsibility of men when they get older. Maybe. I don't know. Um but I started thinking about all these things

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and asking myself these questions and figure out, okay, it's time for me to to to really figure out what do I believe about these things, if anything. And um when I first got in the business, my my thought about these young girls doing this was what everybody else was saying, which was like, well, they're 18, they're adults, they can do whatever they want. And for me to suggest otherwise would be oppressive. That'd be oppressing them, you know, somehow if I, you know, encourage them to not just be

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an object. Uh that would be oppression, I guess. And um so I started that started changing for me, you know, the attitude that well they're 18 and they can do whatever they want and who am I to judge? And I and I came to realize that actually if you're a man, especially, you know, in relation to women that are younger than you and who, you know, don't know about the world yet, we have some responsibility to them. You know, I think that one of the things that makes a man is is that he is responsible for

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for for those that are meek around him, you know. And so I started having a real problem sitting down with 18, 19 year old girls and um being an accessory to what I knew could become the darkest part of their life. And maybe it wouldn't be, but my whole thing was like I never want to be uh an accessory to someone's downfall. And so I started looking at it, you know, when you when you get up towards 30, you look at an 18-year-old girl, and now I'm 38, but you look at an 18-y old girl and they don't look the same as

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when you were 23, you know, and you don't see them the same because you know all that stuff that they don't know now. And it's so as a man, I think it's incumbent upon you to to do something about that. It's not anymore just, well, they're an adult, they can do what they want. Yeah, I guess technically by the letter of the law, but is that right? I don't think so. I think you're I think you're failing in your duty as a man if if you think that way. >> And you you you definitely feel like the

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industry as a whole is just bad for society. >> I do. Um yeah, like I said, I don't think it's good for the girls that are doing it and the guys, too. You know, a lot of people don't talk about the guys. they just talk about the girls, but there's a lot of guys that have a lot of struggles as well and a lot of sad situations I saw because guys can actually, if they're good performers, they can actually have much longer careers than the girls. So, a male can perform into his 50s if he

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stays in shape and you know, whatever. But, you know, if again, if you're a conscious man, you come to some point where if you're stepping on an adult film set and you're 50 years old and you've got some 18-year-old girl on set with you, who doesn't want to, you know, who does who would never off camera be having a relationship with you? And I'm not saying that that never happens, but it's rare. Okay? and you know she smells like weed, she's on, you know, she's probably on Xanax or

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something or whatever and you at that point have to have sex with this girl and she's going to get paid a,000 bucks. If at 50 years old you don't that doesn't do something to you internally, then may then you're probably just lost. You're you you've given yourself up and you're just there's no soul left in you. You're done. And so a lot of these guys get very depressed too. And because at a certain point when you're a male, again, if you're relatively conscious and you

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think about these things, you realize that you don't want to be running around chasing skirts for the rest of your life either. You know, you want to settle down with one woman who you love and maybe have kids or maybe not, but whatever. And that becomes very difficult because what woman who's worth dating is going to be okay with you going and banging some 19-year-old or or 20-year-old whatever as a grown man and then coming home to her. It doesn't happen. And a lot of these guys become very depressed because

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again they're trapped. And some of them try to move on to directing or or whatever other other portions of the business, but that's not always possible. And it ends up being a very sad situation. And there's guys, again, there's guy there's men that kill themselves in this in that business, you know, regularly. And you don't hear about them as much because they're males. So, and a lot of people don't even know them by name. But, um, but that that happens. You know, you you're

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the thing that you thought was fun at 20, well, it's not so fun anymore. And you're you're But you can't know that when you're 20. You know what I mean? Like that. Going back to what I was saying before, like an 18-year-old girl cannot physically cannot conceptualize what this means for her life and you as a grown man know what it means and you're ushering her into it, you know, and and so yeah, um becomes very hard for these people to get in relationships, the girls too, very hard. Even as an agent,

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it was very hard for me to to date women outside the industry because as soon as I told them what I did, they wanted nothing to do with me, even though I wasn't a performer, even though they they didn't know me, you know, whatever. Um, and especially if you're on camera having sex with a lot of people, you know, over many years, you know, there's a quote that I heard one time, I forget who it was, but he says, um, promiscuity hurts people that you love that you haven't met yet.

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I think that's pretty good. I think it's true, you know. >> What are you doing now? You you've been out for a few years at least. >> So, I'm in the real Yeah, I'm in the real estate business now. >> So, I at at you know, around that time that I had my first daughter, I kind of again I was I could no longer wholeheartedly do what I was doing. You know, my morals had changed around it. and um and I and I knew that it was a sinking ship, you know, and that I had

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to get out. And so eventually I was able to do that. I started doing real estate on the side and did quite well and um which allowed me to to leave that industry and to you know go off on my own. I moved back to the east coast where I was originally from and um and yeah, so that's been that was four years ago now. >> And Only Fans was kind of starting to change the porn industry anyway. I think that agency was probably affected by Only Fans. >> Yeah. Well, that was the thing, too, is

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that, like I said, it was kind of the agency business was kind of a sinking ship because, you know, just like in in other forms of media, the the the adult industry has seen a um a very serious um contraction um and consolidation, I guess, is the word, where, you know, these big players buy everything else up. It's just like in the movie business, there's like four major studios that make movies, okay? Okay, in the record business, there's like four major record labels that put out records. It's the same exact thing

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in the adult industry, and all of that was sort of spurred on by the internet and free porn and and whatever. Um, and so, so yeah, Only Fans sort of changed the game once every 10 years in the adult industry. Some technology changes the whole game. So, like when DVDs came in, that messed that the VHS's were done. And then when the tube sites came in, that gave you unlimited free pornography without having to pay for it, that ended the DVD industry. And a lot of producers went out of business cuz they never

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adapted. And then the rest were all sort of bought up and consolidated. And um yeah, and the free porn thing is another thing like like what are we doing to kids that I just want to touch on that for a second like you know to get on some of these these tube sites where there is unlimited hardcore adult content in full HD format. There's no age verification whatsoever. And certain lawmakers or activists, whatever, have tried to get these companies to be responsible about that and institute age verification, all

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this. And they have fought tooth and nail. The industry has fought tooth and nail because they know, I believe, they know that a goodsized chunk of their audience that are accessing this stuff are underage kids. Essentially, under 18, probably >> extremely underage, too. Oh yeah. The I think I read somewhere the average exposure to pornography now for uh for a young person is eight years old. >> Eight years old. >> The average first. >> Yes. And that changes your brain in a

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way that you can't understand. You know that people do not understand. And it's setting that that kid up for a lifetime addiction. It is an addiction. And again, the industry puts out stuff every year about oh porn's not addictive. And we've done a study and this it's 100% addictive. >> Relationships and dating will never be the same. >> No. No. And you and and again you are teaching very young kids to um so in a person there's there's a person's attributes and then there's a

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person and the attributes are in are are replicable. Okay. So like let's say just for example hypothetically I like blondes. Well, there are thousands of women who are blondes, right? So, attributes are replicable. The person is not. The person is unique. Okay? And you are training very young male minds to look at women as a set of attributes and to not look at them as people. And then so young women now, so you know, when he's online at 14 years old, he's searching blondes, big butts, boobs,

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whatever. That's his conceptualization of how to categorize women in his brain. And when he looks at them, that those are the things that he's attracted to first. Um, and so then you hear young women that'll say, you know, I don't know what these what's with these guys. You know, I go out like they're just they have no tact. They're not gentlemen. They, you know, they're whatever. And and and um they're creepy. They're weird. They're sending me like pictures of their

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wingers, like, you know, and and like, yeah, you've trained an entire generation of young men to uh look at women as to flatten them into two-dimensional objects and to not see to not be primarily concerned with the person. >> This is what we built. >> Yeah. And we're all suffering for it. And there's no sense also in arguing between the sexes as to whose fault it is. You know, if you talk to young women about dating, they'll blame young men for being whatever. If you talk to young

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men, they'll blame young women for whatever. And the truth of it is that, you know, that it's both sides and both sides are suffering. and as as a product of of what society has sort of shoved them into. And so both sides have to figure it out. And you're going to have to give each other some grace in doing that. And and women, I think, need to be more vocal about this as well, you know, because women I you know, I think a lot of times women don't want to be confrontational. They kind of want to go along, you know,

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if the if the if it's socially acceptable to say, "Yeah, porn's great. It's no problem." Whatever. Then, you know, women tend to want to say that and be agreeable and and whatever and and agree with like, "Oh, well, it's sexually liberating for the woman and she's in control and this and that. She's no, she's not. She's so out of control, you wouldn't [ __ ] believe it." And and and I think women have, young women have to speak up and say,

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"Actually, no." Like, if you're a guy who watches porn, like that's not cool. Like, you're not that's not fine, you know? >> Do you think there's any closing this box of cobras? I don't know. That's a good question. I think I think there's an attempt to and like I think just now in the younger generation like Gen X or not Gen X, Gen Z is starting to wake up to some of this stuff. Gen Z is like a very polarized generation. Like on one side you've got

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like the next evolutionary step to like the millennials as far as like social permissiveness and sexual freedom and all this kind of stuff. And and then you've got this other sort of reactionary poll that is like extremely conservative. Like if you look at polling of Gen Z, like some of them are the most politically conservative, socially conservative in generations. And so I think there's an awareness among some young men and this is why people like, you know, the rise of people like Jordan Peterson and all

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these sorts of guys like these guys aren't saying anything revolutionary. They're saying stuff to young men that our grandfathers knew, you know, about being a man, about responsibility, about uh sacrifice, about all these sorts of masculine virtues. And and I think that a lot of young men are trying, you know, they recognize that like they don't want to be just mired in slop, you know, that like they are more than just like you know, just their baser instincts, you know, I think there's a even if it's

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not necessarily a conscious feeling of that, there's a subconscious feeling about that. And so, I think there are young men and women who are I think we're starting to turn maybe a page on that, but who knows? Who knows which way that's going to go. >> Yeah. All right, Chris, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this crazy industry that we've created. Yeah. >> And we'll see where it goes. >> Guess we will. We're all along for the ride, aren't we?

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>> All right. Thank you very much. >> Cool. >> When I was designing the first Softwood Underbelly book, I realized that there were so many great portraits that weren't going to make it into that book. They just wouldn't fit. And once I saw how well that first book sold, I knew I'd have to design a second book. This second book is finally ready to ship. Like the first one, this book has a collection of some of the best portraits from Softwite Underbelly, accompanied by a quote from that

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person's interview. This book features another group of Rebecca portraits, as well as a collection of color images of the Whitaker family and plenty of others. You can order yours for $125 or $150 for a signed copy at softwadbelly.org. Again, like the first book, once this book is sold out, I will not be printing more of them. The portraits are what Softwire Underbelly is all about, and these two books contain the best of all that work. Thank you for watching.